Curse

Hawkeye · Sep 21, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Well you make a good point. I suppose if you want to take a look at the value of an item, you watch how much money people are willing to give for one.

With that said, can anyone really deny that the value of a major rune is less than a minor or a superior? You can tell me all you wish that it is pretty good, but then explain to me why people don't buy them.

I think -10 is a bit much. Better have minor -0, major -30, superior -75. Once the value of a major starts becoming something close to the value of its minor or superior counterpart, then it is about right.

The problem is simply that either you want attributes or you want health, so you're either willing to sacrifice health or attribute points. Nobody takes major because the advantage isn't big enough to go half-way and sacrifice a little of both.

/signed

Vanquisher · Sep 21, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

lol? While we're at it make Superiors grant +100 health.

gremlin · Sep 21, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Most enjoyable part of the game to me is working within the game limitations to create a build that really kick monster butt.

Then when it gets too popular or ceases to work well, coming up with another build and starting again.

Certainly prevents the game getting stale
I can see that on some builds major runes are all you need, The extra +1 doesnt always improve a skill.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 21, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Its bad enough they lowered the rune reqs on Superiors from the original stats Doing it now on majors it just stupid. Look runes have been basically the way they are since the beginning, If you have not been able to get or afford what you want by now then thats your problem... Not Anets... And they do NOT have to cater to every crazy whim of a complainer that doesn't like the way the easily attained runes trade for at the merchant... the ones that are expensive are expensive for a reason... they drop rarely, AND they have high demand... This means even if they are farmed, they will likely be USED instead of sold... This is the ideal for any market... it encourages people to get slightly less then perfect things cheaply and hold off for that rare drop to upgrade themselves... Thats the best way to go in any game...

There is just no reason to change Major runes at all. NONE... Indeed if any change was to be I would say remove them entirely... Just have minors and Superiors... But Anet is graciously not as Harsh As I would be.

Phoenix Tears · Sep 21, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

-7 energy? -7 when not attacking?

Do you really play only a wammo? This is completely game breaking.

Yay for balance. This is absurd.

The reason major runes don't get used, is because everyone is so obsessed with using only superior ones. With exception of a MM, there's not a single other PvE build that would benefit from having 16 instead of 14 in a stat, at cost of 75 health.

You got in in the wrong line ...

I didn't meant, that with my changings runes should give "all" those malus.
No , there should exist different runes of the same type with differrent malus.

So for example there exists then a Minor Rune of Fire Magic, which has as malus - 25 HP, you kill some monster and get another same rune droppe of the same type > fire magic again ,but this rune has then for example a malus of -7 Energy instead of -25 HP ...

this way the player receives the chance to search for a spcific rune with a malus u want to have and with that you can live with, but you get then not forced by taking ever only malus on your HP ... thats simple silly and 1 reason, may it be only small, why major runes are much lesser worth, then minors.
Because for like most standart builds, minor runes are simple better, then the stronger ones, because you lower ever with the stronger ones your chances for general survival ... especially so harder enemies become and so more deadly damage they can do ... and the only thing that prevents that are 55 Hp builds, but even those are extreme fragile, there must be only 1 blood necro or any class, that can take somehow away enchants and BANG ur dead.

Most normal and classical way to raise the value of those runes is, to change the system to a normal proportional way and not, how anet made it > halfway antiproportional.

Proportional means, that the runes become more valuable, so stronger and rarer they are in a direct way, which means, so stronger they should be, so lesser malus they must have and must bring higher stats, thus making those runes most interesting to hunt for.
To not flood they market, the strongest runes are then naturally the miost rarest and drop only at specific places.

The halfway antiproportinal way anet ttook is, that the runes get stronger attributes, so rarer they are, yes, but with this stupid thing, that they give you stronger malus too, thus making the strongest runes only for specific things interesting for certain classes with certain builds ... and thats is the reason, why they are lesser worth, than minors, because extreme lesser people buy them, because much lesser people want/need them, cause of this stupid high hp malus, which lets you get killed in 1 hit in the hard modes, when you don't get protected good enough, and this only for some attribute points more, which you can have with certain classes for example again for the moment of need with certain skills, like for the elementalists his glyphs ... which raise for a certain time his attributes by 2...

there are even now consumeables, which rase for certain time attributes too ...

Imo the whole rune system needs a change, when not in GW1 anymore, then for sure in GW2, because the rune system is imo not anymore latest, to be balanced and in personal i think, it was from the start on not well thought out.
it was well thought out maybe for pvp, but in Pve the system sucks and enables only powerfarming by 55 hp builds, which are imo one of the lamest things of the whole game and shouldn't exist.

55 HP farm builds are one thing imo, which destroy the games economy

the_jos · Sep 21, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

(the_jos, discussion about low health necros: )

This is the first I've heard of such a build. But I remember half of his skills. We were in Ring of Fire, he used Life Siphon, I THINK he was uninfused, may have just been his health, and 3 of his skills revolved around minion mastery... with jade bows. And Spiteful Spirit was his elite I think. Actually, are there any links to that build? I'm quite curious now. I want to see if he really DID know what he was doing or he was just trying to get as much power as possible while dying constantly.

In RoF with SS as elite, i don't think he was knowing what he was doing.

The builds in ToPK are build around order of pain/vampire with high blood.
Orders are most usefull when several people in one team are using physical damage, which require team coordination (make sure everyone uses physical damage and not elemental, for one).
He/she could have been full with blood and curses, but that would have lowered Soul reaping too much, I think.
Death would not have added any value, unless he/she sacrificied even more blood/curses for it.
The ToPK build is high blood and high SR (combined with healing when using mending), the DoA is high Blood, high BM (for EoE) with spare in SR.

To explain the ToPK build (B/P team):
this build is usually used combined with 5 rangers with physical damage, one minion master and one monk.
The 5 rangers do +17 damage for each arrow (or +19 buffed with awaken the blood).
Combined with barrage, hitting the max of 6 targets each, that would add +114 damage for each ranger.

The low health in this build makes sure the monk does not use too much energy on the orders necro.

The same is the reason why the DoA BiP runs at 1HP.
At 1HP, there is not health sac (default 33%).
Less worries to keep the BiP alive.
Most of the times the BiP will sac to death when he/she gets too high on health.

I played Order builds in ToPK a lot, mostly 180HP. Always in B/P teams.
I use 180HP because most damage is less than 180, so I can survive one blow (which is enough to get out of aggro range most of the time).
However, outside ToPK, B/P teams are not that common and Order necro's have less value.

If you want to know more about the specific Orders/BiP builds, ask in thread or seach wiki.

Bowstring Badass · Sep 21, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

whole rune system needs imo a change, so that the runes really become more valuable, so stronger they and and not vice versa, that cheap runes cost more money, than the strongest ...

Minor Runes should be like this:

+1 Attribute (stack) and then there are different versions of little malus:

-25HP, - 7 Energy, -7 Defense while not attacking, -15% gain of Adrenaline and so on.
Not only malus on HP, thats silly ...

Major Rune is then slightly better, but naturally rarer and so more worth ...
Still +1 (non stack), but lets you receive 1 Energy per 10 seconds (stack)

-20 HP, -5 Energy, - 5 Defense while not attacking, -10% gain of Adrenaline.

Superior Rune then again slightly better, again rarer, but not perfect
+2 attribute (non stack), receive 1 Energy every 10 seconds (stack)

-15 HP , -3 Energy,- 3 Defense while not attacking, -5% Adrenaline gain

and then finally the new green runes

"Almighty" Rune
+3 attribute (non stack), receive 2 Energy every 10 seconds (stack)

no malus, absolutely rarest stuff, drops only in dungeon chests of the elite dungeons.

that would be 1 way of improvement for the rune system I'd love to see ingame.
For those, who will may whine about "imba" this are only examples, numbrs and % are exchangeable, or to make out of stack non stack ..all no problem ,for balancing, i made this example here with GW:EN hard mode in mind and i think, this system here would fit well.

it makes out of the strongest runes the most valuable, because, who wants to wear a minor rune, that is weaker, then an almighty rune, which gives u no malus and only benefits, + 3 attribute as when wearing an old superior rune, and a slightl energy heal of 1-2 energy per rune every 10(x) seconds, when 10 is imba, then maybe every 12-15s ...

Then we would have also something finally versus lame 55 HP farm builds... but when anet thinks, they should exist, fine, should they then raise simple the health malus from the focus item from - 50 HP to - 400 HP -.-

For the loss? This would result in the richest players in the game with the best crap. I prefer the system where the average player can have nice stuff.

dont feel no pain · Sep 21, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Since the change from -50hp to -35 i have always used major runes on my main attribute - axe mastery, healing etc.

FelixCarter · Sep 21, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

If taken from Elementalists:

6 energy = 35 hp
9 energy = 75 hp

I couldn't see runes offering +2 to an attribute for -6 energy.
Or +3 to an attribute for -9 energy...

And if you added a Superior Rune of Energy Storage to and Elementalist that has -9 Energy instead of -75 Health... What exactly is the point of the rune? They lose 9 Energy to gain 3 in Energy Storage to gain 9 energy?

Truth be told, I don't think the equivalence between Health and Energy has been thought out to clear. Maybe it is, though... I don't know.

Dougal Kronik · Sep 22, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

/not signed

They fixed it once, now many players opt for 2 majors in lieu of 1 superior.

MithranArkanere · Sep 22, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I would agree with removing the dowsides of runes in PvE. But in PvP they are perfectly balanced, you can have lots of +HP mods to compensate up to two superior runes.

Phoenix Tears · Sep 22, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

For the loss? This would result in the richest players in the game with the best crap. I prefer the system where the average player can have nice stuff.

come on really. thats a bad joke ...

do you know, what superior runes cost atm for +50 HP ... ca. 15 Platin ... thats nothing ...

since NF and now with GW:EN, every casual Player can make quick in a day easily those 15 Platin by simple doing GW:EN quests or PQ'S .... (dungeons as well9 or by selling loot of GW:En like destroyer cores, which sell atm for 1 Platin per piece
You can even sell those 4 map pieces for quite a nice sum, I at least got mine yet ever sold for 1-1,5 Platin.

When you dislike the armors, where you need ony or diamonds for, sell those, you get 7-8 Platin per piece for them ....
the game has really enough ways to archieve quick enough money.
Any casual player, that still whines now for having ever lesser then 50 Platin is imo still an lazy ass, sry to say, but it is so

When my changes would come now for example and the value of all supirior runes would raise through this to a similar thing like superior HP rune, than thats nothing ...

it would be imo much better, then before, because runes would be then a much better gold sink. and players would have to do a bit more for perfectionizing their chars.

Then theres still not the MUST to buy them, when you can still find them as monster drop, where you can really be lucky about the drop, when you don#t need the runes, then you sell them at the players for a slightly lesser sum as 15p, for example for 12,5 P and made quite a nice profit, any casual player can get with some luck, so ending up not poor -.-

So imo ur stuff u said is nonsense in end effect.
Any casual player can make in GW:EN quests, which will give you 1,5 platin, when you make them, so money is in this game really no problem anymore ...
========

and like a said, when people find my example solution to imba, then let us change some numbers, until its balanced.
I gave for example the runes the Energy Heal effect, because Runes are magical Signs, so they should also bring an magical effect on their weilders.
A stackable energy heal which comes every x seconds i thought would be quite nice, but could be also instead HP heal instead of energy.
When people find, stackable should be limited, then let us limit it to max 3, instead of rairign the time for every 10 seconds to every 15 seconds, would be also a possible way...

Its easy to say simple only "not signet" to an idea, when no one is willing to think maybe for some minutes first, how the idea could be balanced more, so that it really looks as if it could have a good chance to be changed to that.
I made my idea in conclusion to the idea of bringing into the game also green runes. max of green rune is still +3 in attributes, because major got simple be lowered by 1, because i though, runes that would give +4 to attribute would be imba ...
for lowering major by one, therefor starts then on majors the Receivement of the magical little effects of runes, minors are to weak for those magical effects.
=========

To the point of having different malus with the same type of rune:

sure an elementalist would have not so much profit of taking an energy storage rune, which gives as malus - x Energy, it would only have for it then the benefits of raising the power of energy storage skills by the attributes number, but thats the reason why there should exist more different malus for runes, then only HP, the elementalist for example could look then insead for a rune, that gives as malus lesser % for adrenaline gain, this would be the optimal malus for any standart magical class that has not as 2nd class warrior or so and fights with warrior skills, because no standart magical class uses skils, which need adrenaline, thus making the malus of the rune for the standart magical class optimal, because it has then no effect on them, thus resulting in nearly having the same minor runes has we have now...

Minors have then malus too, but the player must then search for the most optimal one, that you can live with its malus, or that is simple perfect, because it wouldn't affect your class very much to not at all.

I also say only, the changes should be for PvE only, not for pvp, rune system for pvp can stay as it is, because like mithran wrote, for pvp its perfect

Wildi · Sep 22, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Major runes were already changed last year or so. Rebalance Superior Runes instead, -75 is too much reduce to -60. Increase Rune of Superior Vigor to +60 health.

Diddy bow · Sep 22, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I think they are fine after the were buffed. Trader prices are nothing to go on as new players think "superior" MUST be the best, and lower level chars will always go for minors also you are lightly to have more than one minor on a set of armor.

Symbol · Sep 22, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Phoenix Tears:

Escalating drawbacks for escalating benefits promotes one of the holy grails of good game design...meaningful decision making.

But hey, if you want to push the game towards mindless, derivative gameplay where the sole goal is to equip shit with higher numbers, by all means ask A.net to implement your ridiculous system. I mean, they won't do it, cuz they're not morons, but you can always try.

Phoenix Tears · Sep 23, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Phoenix Tears:

Escalating drawbacks for escalating benefits promotes one of the holy grails of good game design...meaningful decision making.

But hey, if you want to push the game towards mindless, derivative gameplay where the sole goal is to equip shit with higher numbers, by all means ask A.net to implement your ridiculous system. I mean, they won't do it, cuz they're not morons, but you can always try.

god, how i hate people, which think, they know all best.
How do ou want to know, what anet will do, and what not ...

i made only a f.ucking suggestion for a new rune system concept, Its a CONCEPT, no full plan, how everything has to be, when changed in the end.

The concept's plan lies in the moment only in implementing a way for green runes without giving them +4 for attributes simple only and this with the thoughts of, how to make superior runes the most valuable ones, which gets shown by their rarety. This is only imo doable, when anet changes their rune system from this antiproportional kind to a normcal classical way ,which means:

> so rarer, so stronger, so more valuable. and the reason why this isnt so is cause of those dumb hp malus, or cause there exist no other malus, then only for hp, which forces people in reducing their best chances for survival in the game dramastically, especially in imba PvE like GW:EN or in PvE in general.
this system is as said perfect for pve, but for PvE it simple only sucks ...

and the old system is simple not anymore needed for pve, because every god damn casual player has enough ways now ingame to archive very quick lots of gold, especially through GW:En now and the casual pvp players does not have to worry, because he gets put every shit nto his ass for free or can easily unlock stuff by playing pvp and using balthazar points.

how anet changes the rune system for pve is for me personally somewhat of shit regardless, if they use maybe something of my concept, o not, important is only that it gets for pve a change ...

moriz · Sep 23, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

it's a bad concept. the current rune setup is much better. just accept that your idea is bad and move on.

Antheus · Sep 23, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Most normal and classical way to raise the value of those runes is, to change the system to a normal proportional way and not, how anet made it > halfway antiproportional.

That's the whole point of runes.

Want benefit, accept loss. The trade-off concept is the very core of this design.

Let's also say that 8 skills is flawed concept, and you should be able to use as many as you want.

Quote:

which lets you get killed in 1 hit in the hard modes, when you don't get protected good enough,

Then don't use superior runes. If they get you killed, they apparently aren't good enough. Trade-off.

That's why for hard areas people prefer only minors, and get their health to 600, rather than have 1 extra attribute point, and die in 1 hit.

Snow Bunny · Sep 23, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

Major runes were already changed last year or so. Rebalance Superior Runes instead, -75 is too much reduce to -60. Increase Rune of Superior Vigor to +60 health.

PvE is the metagame, eh?

Oh...boo RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hoo.

It's fine as is.

Spazzer · Sep 23, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff

Hi,

It's obvious that major runes aren't mostly being used. The prices of superiors and minors sometimes go over 1k, but almost nobody uses majors. They need to be rebalanced.

My suggestion would be to lower the hp penalty from 35 to 25.

What does everyone think?

Thanks in advance,
Sheriff

When Kuntz made the case for lowering the HP cost of runes (they used to be 50), he made it solidly clear they belonged at 37.5 hp. He made a good case for game balance. You, on the other hand, think they're too cheap.